Reframing Polishing the Stone of our Lives with Heidi Lynch & Perrie Voss

This week we feature a vulnerable conversation with actors and creators Heidi Lynch and Perrie Voss, who delve into amplifying underrepresented stories in their new web series Avocado Toast. Perrie shares with us about her mental health struggles and Heidi talks about impact of endometriosis and how their health struggles make their way into their art making. Reframing takeaways that emerge: mental health hygiene as a full-time job, the practice of joyful actions and making ugly art to find one's inner child! Perrie and Heidi also reflect on the things they refuse to sacrifice in their next project, inspiring Nat and Bec to do the same.

Links:
Follow Avocado Toast on Instagram
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Follow Perrie on Instagram and Twitter

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We love hearing from our listeners! Leave us a voice message, write to the show email, or send us a DM on any of our socials.

If our conversations support you in your own reframing practice, please consider a donation on our Patreon, where you can also hear bonus episodes, or tipping us on Ko-fi. Subscribe to the Reframeables Newsletter. Follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube too.

Chapters

• 0:00 This week's episode
• 1:28 Avocado Toast
• 6:33 Trading pain and trading joy
• 11:00 Vulnerability and laughter
• 16:06 Underrepresented stories
• 19:05 Smoothing things out over time
• 24:53 Reframing tools
• 30:14 Speed round
• 34:08 Keep moving

Transcript

Natalie
Hey Reframeables — it’s Nat. Today we are reframing laughter as medicine, though another metaphor that emerged in our vulnerable conversation with actors and creators Perrie Voss and Heidi Lynch was actually polishing the stone of our lives — sanding down the rough edges and smoothing things out over time. One of the ways that they are polishing is by delving into the amplification of underrepresented stories in their new web series Avocado Toast. Perrie shares with us about her mental health struggles, and Heidi talks about the impact of endometriosis and how for both of them their health struggles make their way into their art. Some reframing takeaways that show up: mental health hygiene is a full-time job, the practice of joyful actions takes practice, and making ugly art to find one’s inner child is fun. Perrie and Heidi also reflect on the things that they refuse to sacrifice in their next project, inspiring Bec and me to do the same. So join us for this conversation with Perrie and Heidi as we reframe polishing the stone of our lives. 

Rebecca
Perrie and I are just having a moment, because we went to theatre school together so it’s really fun to see her in this context. And did you know I podcasted? 

Perrie
Not until we got the invitation from our lovely PR person’s staff. So yeah, and then I was like, “Wait a sec!” and then I had to listen immediately I was like, “What?” So I listened to a few of your episodes just to see what it was all about. 

Rebecca
Welcome, Perrie and Heidi. 

Perrie
Thank you. Thank you. 

Rebecca
Your show is fun — and it’s not out in the world yet, right? Is season two out? 

Perrie
No, it is. 

Rebecca
Oh, it is out. Ok. 

Perrie
Yes — September 9th it launched on OutTV. Yeah. 

Rebecca
Oh, ok. I must have been watching private screeners, maybe. 

Perrie
Oh, yes. Yeah. 

Rebecca
Ok, cool. And how has the reception been to season two? It’s a fun, brief, intense season, which I really appreciated how much you’re sort of packing in with lots of issues. You’re not afraid to go there, which I really admired. This is the experience of humans. 

Perrie
Yeah. I think we were all a little bit like, “How are we going to fit all of this into our digital 15 minute time frame?” You know? Because we just had such big things that we wanted to talk about and they’re all, again (like season one, too), with very divergent stories, but somehow we found a throughline. So that was pretty exciting when we sort of realized that pain and, you know, the universality of suffering and things like that can happen in so many different ways. So, yeah, we’re pretty excited that it all sort of conglomerated into something that was worth telling in one show and not three different shows. 

Natalie
Can you tell, sort of just for our listeners who are completely new to who you both are and what it is that we’re doing here, all about Avocado Toast? 

Rebecca
Season two. 

Perrie
Go for it, Heidi. 

Heidi
Yeah — I mean, we can stick to season two. 

Rebecca
Maybe give us context with season one, too. 

Heidi
Yeah, really briefly, season one followed Molly and Elle, and it was really fixated and focused on their female friendship, which was codependent and not healthy. They were both struggling with things in their lives and leaning on each other, and (spoiler) the end of season one is a bit of a ‘are they going to be friends or aren’t they?’ situation. And then we really launched right into season two, discussing female friendships and a potential female friendship breakup, because the two characters are going through really massive life moments. Elle is really struggling and learning about her mental health and how to cope with that in her life. And Molly’s learning about her physical health, being diagnosed with endometriosis and adenomyosis, which affects one in ten people born with a uterus — it’s a very common thing that’s not talked about. And then we have a third lead in season two, which is Alexander Nunez, and he’s really struggling with work-life balance, figuring out how to speak up for himself and fight for the life that he wants. 

Season one was cute and charming and it was also, like, tackling really big issues, and it focused also on a baby boomer generation, which was very cool. But we really deviated in season two. We really hit a new stride, a completely different, underrepresented (and I would argue more underrepresented) storylines, that because of what had happened in the world during the pandemic, because of what had happened with Black Lives Matter, because of what had happened with so many things, I definitely really felt a responsibility. We’d been given funding, we had a platform, and I wanted to welcome even more underrepresented writers into our little pocket. So we asked Alex and Prince to come on as writers. And I’m so proud of what we did in season two. It’s very different than season one. They are sort of different worlds, which is not, you know, when you get hooked into a series, you sort of, like, expect the same thing you fell in love with in season one. And we were brutal — like, we killed beloved characters. Kristian Bruun and Faye Marsay do not come back for season two, and it’s no mark of them — we love them. Kristian Bruun is unique and special in his own right. He is like Canada’s Tom Hanks, I think. I was thinking about him today — like, no one would say a bad word against him, and we loved working with him. He’s comedy gold. But I really wanted to ask Alex and Prince to come on board, and I wanted to see their characters have some equal weight to Molly and Elle, who are going through really hard things. 

But Perrie and I also come to those hard things from a place of privilege. The way that we experience the healthcare system in terms of mental health or physical health is very different than our black counterparts. Like, it just is. And I really wanted to use our funding to try to make something intersectional, which I think we really achieved. And through, like, Perrie and my and Alex’s work was really hard. And Sam, our director, was incredible as a story editor and a director to make those stories make sense altogether in a world. But, yeah, it was a really exciting thing to try to do. And the viewers have to decide whether we succeeded or not, and whether it had merit or not. But I wouldn’t have done it any other way. I’m really proud of it. 

Rebecca
What do you think about this idea — I’m really stuck on this idea right now of I had just read some writer was talking about (and it seems like you guys, you’re doing it in the show) but trading our pain, like the way we trade joy. The image in the book I was reading was that, you know, you pat someone on the back at a game or when there’s a win. Are you sports people? 

Perrie
Sometimes. 

Rebecca
Because I’m using this image, but I’m not really a sports person, so it’s not fully an image that resonates — but kind of that you would just naturally be exuberant about someone scores, but that we can equally almost be exuberant or willing to open up with our pain. Does that make sense? And do you feel like that seems so natural for you both — that you’re not shying away from trading your pain? 

Perrie
I was listening to a podcast not so long ago that was talking about the sort of world where people can lean into being a bit more morose, and kind of, like, bathing in that a little bit. And I think a lot of my life I spent trying to avoid bad feelings, trying to avoid sad things — like, “Oh, that seems painful, I don’t want to deal with that.” And ascribing to the thing of positive thinking, and just trying to lean into that. But then I think when some big life things happened for me that I literally couldn’t work through, like when one of my parents had an affair and then I found out, I don’t know what to do with that amount of grief. It forced me to just start talking about pain, which also led me down sort of the path of talking about my mental health, and why I don’t need to deal with anxiety and stuff. So I don’t think that naturally I was born talking about my feelings — I think I had to learn how to talk about my feelings. And then what you’re saying, like finding this place where you can share with other people and realize that you’re not alone, I’m realizing now is quite beautiful. Whereas before I’m like, “No, no, I’m not sad about anything,” — so, you know, just that WASPy mentality. And the last six years, it’s just not been that for me. I like that concept. I think Heidi would feel similarly, but I don’t know. I’m interested to hear what you think. 

Heidi
I feel like you can fall into a trap with art (especially, like, new filmmakers) where you think pain means drama, pain means interesting. And for me, it’s not pain, it’s the growth. So to just say, like, “I’m in pain, this is my pain, here’s my pain,” that’s not dramatically interesting to me. Watching a character struggle to grow from their pain, struggle to learn from it, is interesting. And I also guess I would argue I don’t know if I see enough of people sharing their joy in content on television, you know? Specifically, like, black joy is a beautiful thing that’s shown in Avocado Toast. And I take that from creators I’m working with on other projects right now who they don’t want to talk about their pain. And maybe it’s not with me as a producer, because that’s not for me to be working with. But I think pain is an inciting thing, it’s a catalyst. It’s why people are mean, it’s why people are angry. And it’s a root of a character you need to show. But for me, the exciting journey is to watch that the pain is their obstacle, the pain is their struggle, but what are they trying to do and how do they grow through that with each other? That’s sort of more, I think, that my brain reaches to in telling stories than trying to write a character’s pain or come from pain. 

Perrie
I would agree with that — and I think even looking at the last, like, six years of our lives and how much we grow through that. I think that’s what we set out showing with Molly and Elle, too, is when we were writing them initially, it’s like we were laughing through this — you know, using that pain to laugh and then grow and learn. And how do you get to the other side of it while you’re sharing all the nuance of it? Yeah, I agree with all of that. 

Heidi
Yeah, and I do love that that is where Perrie and I both fall aesthetically. It’s like, yeah, as you said — we’re not afraid to have really big conversations and we want to have them because they’re important. But for us, there’s no sort of, like, journey or package or collage for the audience where they can have a breath and then actually get affected by those things if there aren’t these pops of comedy and ridiculousness and beauty and fun and joy like there is in Avocado Toast — like, it is very much a dramedy. 

Natalie
I love that because I love how you guys bring forward the humour, and the idea of healing from the past through humour. And that’s certainly something that Rebecca and I navigate on this show a lot. I mean, we’ve both had (because who hasn’t?) your various pains and your various circumstances and the fact that I can come on here and laugh about having navigated, you know, a painful divorce or whatever it is that I bring to the table that day, and then Rebecca’s the person that can laugh at it and with it with me is a really big kind of community builder that we’ve actually experienced people say to us, kind of as just listeners, “Wow, you both bring a lot of vulnerability to the table.” Like, that’s what it is that’s so striking. And I wonder if the vulnerability and the laughter are connected. So, you know, as your show does that — like, as it’s sort of bringing humour, these pops of humour to help heal from the past, is there sort of like an inherent vulnerability that you would say is built into that as well? 

Perrie
I think so. Season one was the first thing that we had ever done on any scale beyond just sort of our little, you know, arts and crafts brains. And I didn’t realize how vulnerable the whole thing was going to be afterwards — like watching it and having to do these interviews and, you know, showing it to my parents who the story was based on, and bringing these real life things and then bringing this vulnerability. Which I don’t think that I ever would have said, like, “Oh, write about your pain so that you can work through it,” but it definitely did help me as well as a person to navigate some of that privately. I’m not really interested in shows and movies that aren’t inherently vulnerable on some level, personally, as a storyteller. 

Rebecca
Do you use the word ‘risk’ — like, do you think about that? “What am I risking in this telling?” 

Perrie
It’s so funny. I don’t even think about it as, like, risk. I think about it more of, like, connection. And I guess maybe that’s, like, after the fact when I’ve realized that I’ve made a big risk. But that’s also just who I am as a person — like, I’ll do something and then go, “Wow, that was a big thing that I just did.” But I am more driven by the connection or the need to tell a story or the need to make representation happen somehow. 

Heidi
I don’t know if this is even answering the question, but, like, at the time that season one was made as well… like, things have changed in our circumstances, but at the time we were very focused on acting, and we weren’t getting the roles we wanted to be getting. We weren’t getting work. So we were making these roles for ourselves to try to showcase our acting abilities, and they were very based on our own lives. And I do remember watching through the process of filming Perrie start to realize that, like, “Oh, this is what we’re doing.” Even though we’d written it, it was like, “Oh, I’m going to have to ask this in front of 20 people right now.” There were moments where it was challenging, you know, and yeah, it opened up conversations Perrie was going to have to have with her parents. I hadn’t come out to my parents yet. Once the show got funded, I was like, “I guess this has to happen.” It just became this sort of snowball where we were working through things. 

But I also think risk isn’t a word that really came to mind. I think, like, art is vulnerable — art’s not interesting to me unless it’s vulnerable. And that doesn’t mean pain. It means, like, opening up, being willing to share, and yeah, putting something on the line for the greater good. It’s not like, “What am I risking?” It’s, “What am I gaining?” “What are we gaining as a group?” is more on my head. And yeah, for me, even when I was just a baby, you know, theatre school actor or whatever, the focus on myself totally dissipated as soon as I was aligned with, like, “What does this character want? What is this piece saying?” And I have to be connected to that and think it’s important, and then your nerves totally go away and you’re able to be vulnerable in a very safe way. 

Rebecca
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Can you talk a little bit more about how you’re shedding a light on underrepresented stories? 

Heidi
Season one, we were talking about adults going through their parents getting divorced and how that’s not really talked about. It’s always a kid of divorce that gets focused on, but they can do detrimental things to people’s concept of love and union and marriage, and it does just put you on a bit of a spin. And coming out later in life in season one… you know, at the time, all the celebrities coming out as bisexual hadn’t happened yet and I really didn’t know where to put myself and it really affected my life. And then season two, like endometriosis is getting light shone on it right now, which is so great, I’m so happy about that. And mental health in terms of Elle, and then also the differently abled. Prince Amponsah, I saw him in a short film years ago. He was in the short before a feature I was in at Canada Film Fest and I was like, “I’m going to work with him.” And it took years until the epiphany came, but it came. Yeah, and Alex getting to, you know, show a black queer. In terms of Jordan, what I feel most excited about with representation is, like, showing a more femme man, and that doesn’t mean you’re not a man. There’s so many different ways to be masculine, to have a male experience. I think we’ve done a really great job. 

I know Perrie just shared this on her social media too, and as did I. But Abbi Jacobson from A League of Their Own did this amazing speech. I’m still involved as a producer on the show. I still have like a year of work to do, and a lot of my work is, like, getting the numbers, getting the data, putting it into report, telling the funders and the networks how good we’re doing. But it’s not, like, quantitative, it’s qualitative, and we’ll never know. We’ll never know how many people watched Avocado Toast at home alone and saw themselves represented. But that’s our target audience, and that’s who we’re making it for. And anytime we get a little message or a DM from those people, it’s the best feeling in the world. At the end of the day, I don’t really care, like, if we have 9 million views or not. It’s like the quality of all the people we’ll never know that watched the show and thought, “Oh, it’s really nice to see myself up there. 

Perrie
Yeah, and I think that carries through for both of us in terms of who we hire and work with that aren’t seen on camera, too. Like, yes, the stories and what everybody is going to view is under mental health and endometriosis and everything that Heidi just said, but I also think we really want to work with people who aren’t necessarily cis white men, which is obviously what makes up so much of crews. And we had cis white men on our show and loved them to death, but it’s like picking the people that are also allies of helping other people get the crew roles that aren’t necessarily the go-to people, you know? Gender diverse people and women, people of colour in key positions. I’m a huge advocate of that across the board, and it’s so cool that we were in a position that we could tell these underrepresented stories with an underrepresented crew. 

Rebecca
I was just reading an article about Sarah Polley in The New Yorker and how she was, on Women Talking, she was trying to create a community vibe that was really important to her, sort of on camera, just by having two shots all the time. So not characters in isolation on camera, which is interesting. But also, you know, this community vibe behind the camera. I feel like that comes through really strongly in your show — a sense of community. 

Perrie
That’s great. It is definitely something we set out to do — like, every person was hand-picked by Heidi and I in interviews to make sure that we not only loved them, but they were madly talented, and people that wouldn’t necessarily be the first person that you’d pick up the phone and call. Like, we dug. We did a lot of work to try and find people that wanted to accelerate their careers and maybe hadn’t had those opportunities yet. 

Rebecca
Do you feel tired? Sometimes trying to make change in areas… like, are you mostly elated from this experience, or are you a mix? Like, it’s fatiguing to try to do things and then you don’t always know how it’s being received. So is it mostly really positive, or is there a mix? Because, come on, let’s trade some pain. 

Heidi
I’m still on the journey. I’m still doing post — like, marketing, producing, and stuff with the network. My Avocado Toast season two track probably won’t be done for, like, another eight months. And I’m looking forward to that and then going, “Ok,” but Perrie might be able to speak a little bit better to how it feels after. There’s a cost. 

Perrie
I was also post supervisor, so I didn’t get a break until the end of April, working straight through from whenever we were writing last summer, two summers ago. And, you know, it’s fine. I think the tiredness doesn’t come from putting these amazing stories on screen. That’s not where the tiredness comes from. The tiredness comes from constantly working. You know, I explored a little bit of that through Elle, and the burnout and stuff. But I will always have energy to tell stories that need to be told. Like, even when I’m exhausted, I’ll get stories, ideas, and I’m like, “Right now? I have to write this down right now?” 

Heidi
Yeah, because that’s, like, energy giving. 

Perrie
Yeah, exactly. 

Heidi
And every time it works out, like, every time — as Perrie said, we did these interviews, and it wasn’t just that we were digging. It’s like sometimes there’s a very specific key that I’m completely in love with that I will die to work with forever. And she knew her worth and she wanted more money, and there was a negotiation, a lot of stern talks that had to happen to make it happen, but we found the money. You know what I mean? And it’s like, she was the best person for the job. But those moments when it works out, when you get a bangarang crew that feels like, “Yes, this is how I feel comfortable. This means all of those months of grant writing I did make sense because this is our team. This is amazing.” That stuff’s life-giving, definitely, you know? 

And with any process, there is conflict, there’s difference of personalities, there’s strong personalities that don’t get along. And that’s the part that drains every ounce of my energy because I’m just like, “Come on, let’s put the project first.” But, you know, at the end of a project (which I’m not at the end of yet, but I can’t wait), you look back and the bad things for me, like, they’re gone. They melt away, because, like: look what we fucking did. And every time it goes wrong and robs you of your energy and takes some of your beautiful positive energy away, it is like a learning lesson for when you get to do your next project. Just going like, “Ok, I learned that again, that’s not going to happen this time. We’re going to do things differently in this way.” And you just keep polishing your little rock until it’s smooth. 

Natalie
I really like that. That’s a really great image. I’m teaching a course right now on research practices, and reflexivity as a necessary part of the practice sometimes means letting go of a project, right, or putting the rock down. Like, as you were basically saying off the top, that how I tell a story, whose story I get to tell, what it means to tell a story a certain way, whose voice needs to be sort of centred in a storytelling experience — all of that is partly where I was going in my mind, Bec, when you asked the question about fatigue, because reflexivity requires energy and it’s actually easier not to look at the self and just sort of focus on the project, right? And then pretend that the project’s like its own thing, when actually the interplay of the people involved, the community, and then the project, and then the path forward, I see it from like an outsider looking in. I never went to theatre school the way you all had to kind of navigate this life. So I’m sort of this observer over here going, “Oh my gosh, that reflexivity piece is so inherent.” And it’s not surprising when one gets tired on the road, and one should, but that’s the biggest thing, right, is I think a lot of people want to look away so that the fatigue never gets in, but then nobody grows. So isn’t that at the heart of it? It’s really fun to hear, because I feel like I’m growing as I’m listening to you all, but at the same time I’m like, “Ooh, I don’t want to do that.” 

Rebecca
And sometimes you can’t get up for the idea. Do you find that? I was thinking, isn’t it Elizabeth Gilbert who says the muse comes and sometimes you’ll have to let that idea go? 

Heidi
Yeah — or if it’s not the right time. It goes into a drawer and then three years later when you do have energy and it is the right time, that same idea can happen. 

Natalie
So we’ve developed this science of reframing tool and I think that you got a chance to maybe look at it, but just to sort of give some of our listeners a little bit of a recap on this tool, we’ve sort of laid out a number of reframing strategies that people can use to help them get from one side of a hurdle to another. And it doesn’t necessarily mean the hurdle goes away, it just means that perhaps they have different sorts of strategies to make their way through it. So if it’s going out and being in nature, if it’s finding someone to listen to you, if it’s finding somebody who can actually speak with you and listen at the same time (because those are two very different ones), have there been any reframing tools that you have grabbed hold of? And I know you’ve said you’re still in the process, but as you kind of maneuver through it and grow through it, have there been any that you have… like, when you saw that list you went, “Oh, I do that all the time,” or, “I need to do more of that.” 

Perrie
It’s funny — like, I was focusing on mental health in the telling of season two, and then I had another mental health crisis near the end of post production. So it made me go, “Oh, I guess I’m not done with this story yet,” right? I was like, “I need to actually look at myself again, and really decide if I’m going to put myself through that type of crisis again, and where I go wrong to put myself in a position that I’m that burned out,” and all that stuff. So I was listening to a podcast several weeks ago and there’s something like, “Mental health is a full time job, period. That is your full time job.” So for me, every day there is something that I’m doing, whether it’s journaling, meditating, being in nature, exercising, therapy. I’m just constantly making sure that I feel ok and safe in my body before I’m interacting with anybody else. And if anybody disrupts that, I take a step away and go, “How do I then navigate going forward, and is this person worth my peace — my sense of peace?” 

So for me, that’s where I operate now. It’s really important to me to keep that front and centre, just because if you become not functional as a human being, what is the point of any of this? So, yeah, those are the things that I think I do. Yeah, I journal a lot, I make art just for art’s sake, I play the piano. You know, just things that are actually joyful, because I think when you make a career and you make money off your art, it can become really easy to say, “Ok, well, I need to go work now,” and all art becomes work. But, you know, I really hope no one ever pays me to play the piano. I used to sell my art and I don’t want to sell my art anymore, so I just use my fingers, and… 

Heidi
She makes good art, by the way. She does good paintings, just for the record. 

Perrie
Thank you, thank you. I challenge myself to make ugly art now, and then I end up loving it anyway. But I’m like, “Let’s make the ugliest art that I can make,” because that’s where the kid is, right? Like, who’s the person that wanted you to make film in the first place? Yeah, that’s how I interact now with every day. I’m not always successful, but that’s my goal. 

Rebecca
What about you, Heidi? 

Heidi
I don’t know if you’ll get as good of an answer for me. I mean, like, as soon as we wrapped, I was the music supervisor, so I got to delve into music where all the music has always been a huge outlet for me, and it’s something that I’ve never used in a job sense. I play multiple instruments, I write songs — whatever there is for myself. 

Perrie
She’s also wildly talented in music — like, her voice is like an angel. 

Heidi
But yeah, like negotiating those music contracts with artists, it is all tied to work for me. I have a hard time with hobbies and stuff. I like things to be connected to work. But also, like, I’m making two new shows, I have a beautiful doc series, and that process has literally been pure joy from start to finish. And we just made our little teaser. And getting to shoot in nature, getting to again pick this amazing crew, the people that I literally just wanted to hang out with at a cottage, who are so talented and they get to be in nature for three days, was reframing for me. It was helpful. It helped me look back at other experiences when people maybe didn’t work together so well, or whatever happened happened, and go like, “Ok, every single thing won’t be heaven.” But there are things that I refuse to sacrifice going forward, and so for me, it is like the new project helped me reframe the old one — whenever this project is done, in eight months or whatever. 

But I’m literally at a film festival right now for Avocado Toast. We’re screening it tomorrow. It’s really fun and exciting. Yeah. I don’t know when I’ll be ready to reframe it, because we’re still on the journey, but I’m excited for that point. I think there’s definitely a transition. I think we all know there’s not going to be a season three, so it will come to an end at some point. Yeah, I don’t know. I think it might take me a bit more time. I’m somebody who is impulsive. I make decisions and I do things and I reflect on them much later. I probably just need a bit more time. That was very rambly for someone who said they didn’t have an answer. 

Rebecca
Life is a bit rambly sometimes. We’re trying to figure it out — and it’s true, like, when you’re right in it, it’s hard to know what this whole experience has been. For my series, took years to reflect on the value, the great parts, the hard parts, all that. I totally get that. 

Thanks for sharing, both of you. Ok, we like to do a little speed round. Are you ready? As you can see, we’re fairly complex people, so our speed round is not very speedy, but just do your best. Just try to answer fast if you can, just for the hell of it. 

Natalie
Off the top of your head, yeah. 

Rebecca
Nat, hit us. 

Natalie
What’s the last new skill you learned? Heidi first. 

Heidi
To make a digital business card I can have on my phone in my wallet. 

Natalie
Perrie? 

Perrie
My partner’s currently making an ice rink in the back, so I’m learning vicariously how to make an ice rink. They literally made, like, a Zamboni out of PVC pipes. So I’m not out there. 

Rebecca
What! 

Heidi
My new skill is Jay’s new skill. 

Perrie
Yeah, yeah. Because I’m learning vicariously. I just don’t want to be out in the cold, but that’s my new skill. 

Rebecca
But then you’re definitely going to take advantage of it, right? The rink? 

Perrie
Oh, 100%. And I could do it next year. 

Heidi
Your new skill is Zamboni wife. I’m sorry, you need to reframe that. 

Perrie
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Rebecca
That’s so awesome. Perrie, you live in Calgary? 

Perrie
Yeah, part-time. Part-time. So I’m here, Jay owns a house here — they say hi, by the way. 

Rebecca
Ok. Hi! 

Perrie
So we’re here when we’re not working because it’s just wonderful to be in a place that is in the mountains and nature. And then when we work, we book a flight and fly back or fly to or wherever we have to go. So, yeah, part-time. 

Rebecca
What’s a common myth or something people misunderstand about your profession? 

Heidi
Ooh, that producers don’t care about the art. 

Perrie
That you’ve made it when you’re on a TV show that everyone recognizes. And all the other work is like, “Oh, ok.” And then you’re like, “No, but I don’t sleep sometimes, and…” 

Natalie
Well, that makes sense. Ok, what is the most fun thing that you’ve done today? Or are going to do, because I’m thinking of your premiere. 

Heidi
Yeah — going to a networking party tonight. I’m excited. It’ll be fun. 

Perrie
Where are you, Heidi? Are you in London? 

Heidi
Newcastle. 

Perrie
Newcastle, ok. 

Heidi
Newcastle upon Tyne. It’s a party town. 

Perrie
What British town isn’t a party town? 

Heidi
Many. 

Perrie
Well, it’s very early here still, so waking up was cool. I’m going for dinner at Jay’s parents house tonight, and they are wonderful hosts, so I’m looking forward to that. 

Rebecca
So you know that’ll be fun. Got it. Ok, how would your siblings or a close friend describe you in three words? Perrie, you go first. 

Perrie
Funny, intelligent, and emotional, but not in a bad way — like, all the feels. Feelings. 

Heidi
I have to do siblings, because you said siblings and I have three older brothers. So my one brother would call me stinky, not because it’s true, but because it’s a nickname. My other brother would call me the best aunt in the world, because I am. And my other brother would call me his best friend. 

Rebecca
Oh, that’s so nice. 

Natalie
What do you both need to be creative? One word. 

Heidi
Money. 

Perrie
Space. 

Rebecca
Heidi, what did you say? 

Heidi
Money. 

Rebecca
Money. Mmm, ok. And Perrie, is that what you said, too? 

Perrie
I said space. 

Heidi
You can buy a space with money. 

Perrie
Like, space. Like, just feeling not bothered — mental space. 

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s good. Ok, and last one: what’s for dinner tonight? 

Natalie
One’s at a party, and another is at another party, so this will be great dinner. 

Rebecca
Hors d’oeuvres? 

Perrie
I’m pescatarian and they eat a lot of meat, so usually they cook some sort of fish or seafood, something. So yeah — and lots of wine. 

Heidi
Yeah. There’s promised to be… I forget the name of the restaurant — it’s, like, got a wacky name. But it’s the Northeast International Film Festival, and they’ve promised food and drinks, so I’m hungry and I’m going to eat. I’m going to eat tonight. 

Rebecca
It’s going to be good. 

Heidi
Yeah, I hope so. 

Perrie
Can I say one last thing? There was no segue into this, but I just want to say, Rebecca, like, I remember meeting with you and Marie-Claire at some café in Roncy years ago. 

Rebecca
Yeah. 

Perrie
Like 2016 or something, and I was, like, trying to pick your brain. I think you were about to go shoot season two or something. And you are the reason that whenever people are like, “How do you do what you do?” You literally just looked at each other and you’re like, “You just have to do it.” And, like, Heidi’s heard me say it in interviews. I say it all the time, and, you know, young filmmakers are like, “Ugh,” but I’m like, “It was the best advice that I have ever been given as a baby filmmaker,” because I thought that there was some secret formula or something, and you guys just very pointedly were like, “So do it.” And it created this show from my trajectory. So thank you for that. 

Rebecca
Oh yeah, I’m glad. And actually, it’s funny because I do remember that coffee. Yeah, I remember it really fondly, and so that’s really cool that we could have inspired that. It’s true — just everything. I feel like that’s the way in the arts. My whole career has been just… 

Perrie
Do it. 

Rebecca
Keep going. Just do it. Just try, and then keep going. Keep moving.